Should you go into debt...
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andydp
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 Posted: 10/17/06 - 16:12 Post subject:
This is not like going into debt to get a hot tub. As GGG said, its an investment.
Speaking from a personal side, my wife has done an absolutely fabulous job with college financing. She has bascially saved enough for EACH kid so that the college loans have been minimal. For my daughter, in her third year of a five year program this is less that $ 20K.
This took a lot of effort when the kids were young, even harder when the kids went to Catholic Schools from K - 12 and I was un and under employed for five years in the middle of all this.
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airehead
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Posted: 10/17/06 - 21:21 Post subject:
I was pretty much just asking to see where Americans stand on this issue.
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runaroundsue
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Posted: 10/17/06 - 22:21 Post subject:
for myself, yes.....for my kids, no I will not. I will help them, but by the time they reach college age, I need to worry about my future of being old. I've been saving since the day they were born and what I have is what I have when they turn 18. It should be enough for any good school, except maybe graduate school and/or medical school at John Hopkins. And if that is their choice, they should be willing to go into debt. I paid off my own loans and then help support my husband. I don't want them to work 3 jobs like I did, but I don't want them to have it too easy, either.
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 10/18/06 - 00:09 Post subject:
Here's what I think in terms of the next generation: Brie's right, there's hardly anything you can do that provides a decent future that doesn't require a college degree, unless you're some sort of artist, or professional basketball player, which my kids forgot to be. So I feel it's up to me and their dad to get their undergrad schooling taken care of. I also think private school for undergrad is a waste of money.
Having worked most of my life in higher education, I can safely say that so many grad programs have funding that if I left it to my kids to get that funded (unless, god forbid, they wanted an MD, a JD, or an MBA) it wouldn't be a terrible thing. If they wanted one of those t3 degrees, though, I'd help out if I could, but I wouldn't pay the whole thing.
Like someone else said, it's no favor to have everything handed to you.
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RangerG
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Posted: 10/18/06 - 08:04 Post subject:
| robp wrote: | | I personally think there are way too many people getting into way too much debt and coming out of college with either no degree or a sheepskin that isn't going to get them a whole lot in the way of gainful employment. I also think the expectations of many college students are much higher than the reality of entry level jobs in the real world. |
I tend to agree with this position. I see guys who only a few short years ago graduated High School, went into construction as a laborer, learned a trade, and now drive huge new F350's and live in a very nice house. A couple of them own their own business.
I also have a friend who started with the railroad 15 years ago, and became a locomotive engineer. He pulls in over 100 grand a year after taxes. Had I done this 25-30 years ago, I would be retiring right now with over a four grand a month pension plus a 401k.
None of the above requires a degree...they are all High School graduates.
There is also an old saying: "Students who made A's and B's end up working for those who made C's and D's."
Or as the Liberal Arts Graduate would say, "Ya want fries with that?"
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airehead
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Posted: 10/18/06 - 09:19 Post subject:
| RangerG wrote: | | robp wrote: | | I personally think there are way too many people getting into way too much debt and coming out of college with either no degree or a sheepskin that isn't going to get them a whole lot in the way of gainful employment. I also think the expectations of many college students are much higher than the reality of entry level jobs in the real world. |
I tend to agree with this position. I see guys who only a few short years ago graduated High School, went into construction as a laborer, learned a trade, and now drive huge new F350's and live in a very nice house. A couple of them own their own business.
I also have a friend who started with the railroad 15 years ago, and became a locomotive engineer. He pulls in over 100 grand a year after taxes. Had I done this 25-30 years ago, I would be retiring right now with over a four grand a month pension plus a 401k.
None of the above requires a degree...they are all High School graduates.
There is also an old saying: "Students who made A's and B's end up working for those who made C's and D's."
Or as the Liberal Arts Graduate would say, "Ya want fries with that?" |
Those are great jobs, but part of me thinks you need to have some type of innate ability to perform those jobs. I don't think you can put your average joe blow in those jobs and have him be good at it or even enjoy it.
I would love to do construction work. Do I have any skill or ability in that field? H*ll no. I wouldn't live in a house I built. (Heck, the birds didn't  ) So, for some, the alternative I think is having to get a degree, or being forced into minimum wage.
I plan on getting Aire Jr to go to night school the next couple of years to learn a trade, to get a base to build on--I wish I had done that young.
If/when he goes to college he can use those skills to support himself. (What I don't pay for) I.E: cars, dates, etc.
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Pug
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Posted: 10/18/06 - 12:18 Post subject:
Okay, there are some jobs you can go into without a degree and end up making good money. But, I think most of these jobs tend to be more along the lines of physical labor vs jobs with a company (including the government which I'll count as a company).
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airehead
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Posted: 10/18/06 - 12:57 Post subject:
| Pug wrote: | | Okay, there are some jobs you can go into without a degree and end up making good money. But, I think most of these jobs tend to be more along the lines of physical labor vs jobs with a company (including the government which I'll count as a company). |
But some non-degreed jobs definitely need some skill or talent that for many doesn't come naturally.
(granted some are just hard work, like floor sweeping and cleaning, but those tend more toward minimum wage)
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robp
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Posted: 10/18/06 - 13:46 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | Here's what I think in terms of the next generation: Brie's right, there's hardly anything you can do that provides a decent future that doesn't require a college degree, unless you're some sort of artist, or professional basketball player, which my kids forgot to be. So I feel it's up to me and their dad to get their undergrad schooling taken care of. I also think private school for undergrad is a waste of money.
Having worked most of my life in higher education, I can safely say that so many grad programs have funding that if I left it to my kids to get that funded (unless, god forbid, they wanted an MD, a JD, or an MBA) it wouldn't be a terrible thing. If they wanted one of those t3 degrees, though, I'd help out if I could, but I wouldn't pay the whole thing.
Like someone else said, it's no favor to have everything handed to you. |
I disagree with this wholeheartedly and have stated so in the past. The workforce is screaming for skilled and reliable workers in the trades. I would send my kid thru an electrician/plumber/carpentry etc. apprenticeship in a heartbeat over the countless crap college degrees available these days. Combine a 2 yr tech degree with the skills obtained in an apprenticeship and a young person could pave the way to a very good future that includes much of the skill necessary to open one's own business. A desire to work, learn, show up daily and on time will keep a kid/young adult gainfully employed for a long time.
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 10/18/06 - 14:04 Post subject:
I can see your point but all of what you've said is premised on the idea that college is vocational, and I just don't see it that way.
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robp
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Posted: 10/18/06 - 14:10 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | | I can see your point but all of what you've said is premised on the idea that college is vocational, and I just don't see it that way. |
No, what I just said is that if a kid is willing to work hard, develop a skill or three, be reliable and trustworthy then he or she can make it in this big bad world without starting out 5 years salary in debt.
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wanttorun100
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Posted: 10/18/06 - 14:55 Post subject:
What I don't understand is getting 'odd ball' degrees like Mr MA in Music and MA in 'The Classics'
He's a fairly smart fellow - after a few years of starving he took a couple of Microsloth tech school classes and is now looking to work in IT. He's pissed at the world because with 'all his education' we want to start him at $20 an hour
dude that's 39K a year and probabbly more like 45K after overtime
we don't play music here and we don't study ancient Greece here - you're going to be the tech Grunt Monkey running jobs and delivering printouts until you have enough experience / training to do more challenging work.
Now if you become one of the Field Engineers the company bills out at $200 an hour to clients you'll probabbly get $35 or $45 an hour - if you get some really high speed skillz like DBA you could make more than that
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MechEngDropout
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Posted: 10/18/06 - 15:54 Post subject:
I tend to agree with Rob and Ranger on this one. And Aire, though Ranger's two examples may require some inate skill (I don't think they do - repetition is sufficient - but for the sake of argument, they do.), but there are plenty of jobs that don't require that inate skill, or there is going to be something that you are good at, unless you're a complete lazy moron.
By the way, how are we defining good money? Starting salary of 35k/yr is pretty decent for no degree, right? Heck, that's great money for many degrees. I think within 10 years that could be around 50k/yr. It's not stellar money, but it's a good living - and I'm a firm believer that it can be done with no college degree, limited training, and probably with no manual labor either.
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airehead
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Posted: 10/18/06 - 16:38 Post subject:
| MechEngDropout wrote: | I tend to agree with Rob and Ranger on this one. And Aire, though Ranger's two examples may require some inate skill (I don't think they do - repetition is sufficient - but for the sake of argument, they do.), but there are plenty of jobs that don't require that inate skill, or there is going to be something that you are good at, unless you're a complete lazy moron.
By the way, how are we defining good money? Starting salary of 35k/yr is pretty decent for no degree, right? Heck, that's great money for many degrees. I think within 10 years that could be around 50k/yr. It's not stellar money, but it's a good living - and I'm a firm believer that it can be done with no college degree, limited training, and probably with no manual labor either. |
You can get 30k as an entry level shipping/rec. clerk in Cali.
W/bennies.
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MechEngDropout
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Posted: 10/18/06 - 17:21 Post subject:
| airehead wrote: | | MechEngDropout wrote: | I tend to agree with Rob and Ranger on this one. And Aire, though Ranger's two examples may require some inate skill (I don't think they do - repetition is sufficient - but for the sake of argument, they do.), but there are plenty of jobs that don't require that inate skill, or there is going to be something that you are good at, unless you're a complete lazy moron.
By the way, how are we defining good money? Starting salary of 35k/yr is pretty decent for no degree, right? Heck, that's great money for many degrees. I think within 10 years that could be around 50k/yr. It's not stellar money, but it's a good living - and I'm a firm believer that it can be done with no college degree, limited training, and probably with no manual labor either. |
You can get 30k as an entry level shipping/rec. clerk in Cali.
W/bennies. |
Does that pay bills in Cali? But that's what I'm talking about... there are jobs that pay decent wages all over the place.
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